If only there had been an alien or higher intelligence to tell the early Homo Sapiens how to optimize their experience of life on Earth. Even 20,000 years ago it could have made a big difference but not easy even with current technology. Even the Genesis idea of weeds is nonsense because with all the wildflower / weed seeds blowing around how could you have a situation were only the desired plant grew on a patch of ground ? Even with fruits in a tree there would always have been plenty of insects & birds looking at it for laying eggs in & food etc. The odd thing was that the other Great Apes seemed to have a more sustainable existence. Too clever is dumb ? But they have a fairly brutal existence
It would need a supernatural God to supervise birthrate / death rate by miraculously controlling heath & fertility to make this world pleasant for humans. Suffering would be all his fault, just as well he doesn't exist or he would have hell to pay.

• Christ's last subconscious words from the cross were maybe, " I'll get you back, only infinitely worse. You might have put me on a cross for a few hours but I'll put you on a cross and worse for eternity ".
  Anyone who agrees with the Geneva convention that it is unethical to torture people should agree that to torture people longer and worse than is possible on Earth would be even more unethical and more immoral. Yet some people can turn round and endorse A God doing that ?
  If Christians think Hitler should be punished for making people suffer in the concentration camps then surely they should think God should be punished if he caused worse suffering. However the real answer is that AbrahamicGreekGod should have  prevented Hitler from doing the suffering at the time.
  The only real justice is the prevention of injustice at the time. At the end of life on Earth no one will care what anyone thought about anything.  I suppose you could argue that the threat of punishment after death could make people try harder to avoid abusing others on Earth.
  
  Even WLC tries to make his hell less cruel but it is still cruel. Any sensible God would just let people become unborn again like before conception.- that way he would save himself the headache of realizing he had caused most of humanity to suffer forever
  
  
  It would be great to find a way to prevent people from doing crime though.
  
  
  
  
  
  

MORE CONTRADICTIONS. [ ps I'm using Bible against itself, i don't necessarily agree with its ideas ]

A LOVING GOD WOULD EITHER TAKE PEOPLE TO A HEAVEN OR LET THEM CEASE TO EXIST.

Yet the New Testament has verses which seem to say a God would allow suffering after death.

John 14v13 has Jesus say to his disciples,"I will do whatever you ask in my name ". So if Jesus was to act in a caring ethical way, as if he loved the world, as John 3v16 claims, then either Jesus or his disciples should have asked for all humanity to go to heaven or cease to exist like before conception. Then they would have received that request. Since Matt 19v26 has Jesus say, " with God all things are possible " it doubly could have been done. If God had the will he could have found a way. Also Luke 23v34 should have Jesus say, " Forgive humanity and take them to heaven for they know not what they do " and he would have received it "

So then, if there was a Holy Spirit, how did the disciples not get prompted to request this ? If it wasn't in the will of God [ not in the name of Jesus ] then that means that God chooses to let most go to a place of suffering after death. Yet Romans 13v10 says love does no harm to it's neighbour and 1 John 4v8 says that God is love. So how could a loving God let humanity come to harm / suffering after death ? This would be a total contradiction.

If letting humanity suffer forever more is worse than murder , since it would be like a long drawn out murder, then the doctrine of hell is like something the devil would carry out. John 8v44 says " The devil was a murderer from the beginning " . 1 John 3v15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, you know that no murderer has eternal life in him "

So no being who would cause murder like suffering to happen to people can have eternal life- therefore a God who would oversee a hell would not have eternal life and not be a God.

Contrast this with the picture John 8 paints of a merciful Jesus who says, " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ". Maybe this figure would be likely to say on a Judgment day, " Let any who are without sin cast the first people into a hell, oh so no one does, well neither do I "

Matt 24v35 has Jesus say, " Heaven and earth may pass away but my words will never pass away.

THE BEST ETHICAL PRINCIPLES IN THE BIBLE CONTRADICT THE DOCTRINE OF HELL

Test the imagined Gods by the Golden rule [ which may have started in Greek, Egyptian or Persian philosophy ] Do they act in accordance with it? cause if they don't then they are not worthy to be called Gods.

Like Isaac Asimov's "rules for robots " we could do with rules for gods : " The gods shall treat humans as they would wish to be treated if they were humans ", " The gods shall do no harm to humans, nor by inaction allow harm to befall humans ". " The gods shall not judge that they be not judged "

I think that Jesus is mostly fictional but how would Jesus have a judgment day if he said do not judge that you be not judged, he would judge himself & it would be completely hypocritical.

The N.T. runs two different ideas about it's gods. There is a skeleton of best internal principles Matt 7v12-golden rule and Romans 13v10- love does no harm, which you could say was the bones of a loving figure then there is the external story line which is a phantom of a Judgment day god like Osiris or Hades. The two ideas completely contradict and are incompatible but are mixed throughout the N.T.

Even taking the good rule of thumb , " Do not murder " and ask, " What is murder ? "- usually putting a nasty & violent end to someone. making them suffer, robbing them of the good they would have enjoyed. Maybe letting people go to an eternal torment would be worse than murder- making people die horribly forever. So anyway how could a caring God who was trying to prevent suffering by saying, " Do not murder " turn round and cause worse suffering than any human could cause. He would sin if he did so.

The storyline of the N.T. fiction has been written in a way which is not consistent with the Golden Rule. People just need to take the best bits of the bible and, like a mirror, shine them back at the imagined gods and they will disintegrate. The best ethical bits can dispel the fantasy of supernaturalism.

Or think of James 4v17 " Anyone who does not do the good he should, sins." So think of all the good a God could have done in the way of preventing crime of illness, even giving the technology to achieve this. Well it looks like God has sinned according to James 4v17

I agree with Victor J Stenger, " Cosmic God is a failed hypothesis "

I like the idea of wisdom commons- the focus on moral core - imagining best practice.

"Trusting doubt " by Valerie Tarico lists the mentions of Golden rule in each religi

 I find that the Golden rule [ which may have started in Greek, Egyptian or Persian philosophy ] helps me when applied to people's imagined gods.

 Like Isaac Asimov's "rules for robots " we could do with rules for gods :

 " The gods shall treat humans as they would wish to be treated if they were humans ",

 " The gods shall do no harm to humans, nor by inaction let suffering befall humans ".

 " The gods shall not judge that they be not judged "

I think that Jesus is mostly fictional but how would Jesus have a judgment day if he said do not judge that you be not judged, it would be completely hypocritical.

The N.T. runs two different ideas about it's gods. There is a skeleton of best internal principles Matt 7v12-golden rule and Romans 13v10- love does no harm, which you could say was the bones of a loving figure then there is the external storyline which is a phantom of a Judgment day god like Osiris or Hades. The two ideas completely contradict and are incompatible but are mixed throughout the N.T.

The storyline of the N.T. fiction has been written in a way which is not consistent with the Golden Rule. People just need to take the best bits of the bible and, like a mirror, shine them back at the imagined gods and they will disintegrate. The best ethical bits can dispel the fantasy of supernaturalism.- how come the angels don't give new antibiotic technology- cause they are imaginary.
I agree with Victor J Stenger, " Cosmic God is a failed hypothesis "
But I like the idea of wisdom commons- the focus on moral core - imagining best practice.

If you realize that " God " is just a projection of yourself then you can modify it to be a model of how you would like to live.
"Trusting doubt " lists the mentions of Golden rule in each religion

BIBLICAL REASONS THAT A GOD WOULD NOT LET PEOPLE SUFFER AFTER DEATH
What does the Bible say are the best ideas in the Bible ?
1 Cor 13v1 & 13 The greatest of these is love
 Matt 7v12: Golden Rule:  Do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law
Matt 22v39 The second greatest commandment is love your neighbour as yourself. All the law hangs on this
John 13v34 A new commandment I give you, you must love one another
Romans 13v10 Love does no harm to its neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law
1 John 4v8 God is love : therefore does no harm to his neighbour
Luke 6v37, Do not judge that you be not judged. Do not condemn that you be not condemned, forgive that you be forgiven,
After teaching the disciples the above verses  Matt 16v19Jesus delegates authority to keys of kingdom of heaven to Simon Peter, so surely you would expect Peter to judge according to above principles
Think of the Magna Carta which is the principle that the King should have to abide by the law of the land.
Now use the above principles to ask how you would expect Jesus / God to act if he was to act in accordance with those principles.
Matt 7v12 Jesus should ask himself if he would like to spent eternity in a hell ? Obviously no, and as Ephesians 5v29 says: After all no sensible person ever hated his own body but he feeds and cares for it.  Genesis 1v29 God is in mans image so should empathize
So since Jesus would not like to go to a hell he should not let others- especially not most of humanity go to a hell.
James 4v17 Anyone ( including God ) who does not do the good he should sins
Jesus would condemn himself if he condemned most of humanity
Surely a God would act in accordance with Geneva Convention Part 1 article 3a which bans torture
Jesus would not be able to forgive himself unless he forgave everybody
Matt 18v22 Jesus answered forgive seventy times seven
John 14v14 You may ask me for anything in my name and I will do it .
 Matt 19v26  For God all things are possible
Maybe some of  the ideas in the Bible do not conform to the image of Christ as above ? Romans 12v2
So Jesus or the disciples should have asked that humanity either go to heaven or extinction, not a hell
Luke 23v34 Jesus should have said, " Forgive all humanity and take them to heaven for they know not what they do " and he would have received that prayer request, according to John 14v14
John 3v16 should read: " For God so loved the world that he could not bear the thought of condemning anyone and it would blight his conscience and so he saved everyone through Jesus. "
HAPPY EVER AFTER, AMEN

Re Ancient Egyptian fantasy of the judgement by Osiris by weighing the heart in the scale against feather of truth.

 We should weigh the Gods in the scale of whether they act according to the Golden Rule. Obviously no God would like to be in a hell suffering forever more so they should not let humans go there either.   see Matt 7v12

 They should not condemn humans or they would condemn themselves,      Luke 6v37
 They would have to forgive or they would not be able to forgive themselves  Luke 6v37

  They should do the good they could or they would sin according to James 4v17

 If the Gods were real they could have told us all the technology we needed to make life sustainable and pleasant- information 
to enable the manufacture of medicine to prevent illness & provide sufficient food for all & means to conserve biodiversity
  Also they could have controlled births and deaths so that no sick babies were born and that people died before they suffered too much or were too senile.

  Note that  John 14v14 has Jesus say, " ask whatever you want in my name and you will have it " so how come the disciples fail to ask that all go to heavena and how come Jesus doesn't pray for that ? That was selfish.

Very odd that Jesus was meant to be renown yet the crowd that went to arrest Jesus in Matt26v47-49 needed Judas to identify Jesus with a kiss. What ? Didn't Jesus have a halo round his head ? Not one of the crowd could have identified even Jesus let alone the other disciples? How did they know that Judas hadn't double crossed them and kissed the wrong man- easy done in the dark I'd guess? So in fact one of disciples was crucified ?- Life of Brian. Problem solved. Jesus caught up them 3 days ltr

Hypothesis: While Jesus went off alone up hill, other disciples were in Mt of Olive so Judas leads crowd & on meeting the disciples forgets the arrangement & kisses his gay friend out of habit. The crowd seize the man. All the disciples are like, " You've got wrong man, he's innocent " but crowd aren't listening. Before Pilate disciple is struck dumb with fear. On cross he is like, " You don't know what u do ".Judas heart broken commits suicide. Jesus turns up 3 days later: " What's up guys ?",  " Timmy  has been crucified in your place ", " "wow that was generous of him i'm really touched "
" But don't you see they were really after you, you'd better make yourself scarce, if you don't want to end up dead "
" Oh ok, got you, see you later folks"

IS THE GOLDEN RULE THE HOLY GRAIL- the precious stone / metal from the heavens that is pulled from the  stone age tablets. How does the behaviour of the God of the Bible compare to Golden Rule & Luke 6v37 ?

I agree that the Golden Rule, Matt 7v12, is a good rule of thumb:" So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the prophets." Do you think that Jesus would have to act according to the Golden Rule ? I would not like to go to a hell so I would not sent anyone to a hell. Jesus would break Golden Rule if he let most of humanity go to a hell. Also he would condemn himself because Luke 6v37 : Do not condemn that you be not condemned, forgive that you be forgiven. Matt 24v35 My words will never pass away. Matt 16v19 MAGNA CARTA Jesus delegated the keys to the kingdom of heaven to Simon Peter who he has previously commanded to live by Golden rule & New commandment I give unto you that you love one another.

The doctrine of hell is incompatible with the idea of 1 John 4v8: that God is love.Romans 13v10 : " Love does no harm to its neighbour ". If Jesus knew that most people would go to a hell, Matt 7v13, then he would have a duty of care to prevent that either by cancelling hell or making it that people cease to exist at death or terminating humanity in 1st century to minimize the number going to a hell or take everyone to heaven. Health & safety risk assessment would mean God would not act as Bible

Why would a loving God give himself heartache by realizing that he had let most of humanity go to a hell? If you believed that for God all things were possible, Matt 19v26, then surely he would take the chosen ones to heaven and let the rest cease to exist = saves him the headache of having acted worse than Hitler. Lets face it the Bible talks of a God who would let most of humanity suffer not just in this life but forever more = not love. Jesus would only be a hero if he saved everyone

John 3v16 should read, " For God so loved the world that he sent his Son to cancel hell as if it never existed so that the chosen ones could go to heaven and the rest could cease to exist like before they were born ". That way at least the Bible could be respected. But to say there is a God who let humanity suffer their way through life on Earth without even making known the medicine that could have minimized that suffering and then knowingly to let most be tortured for ever more is to describe a being that does things far worse than Hitler could ever do. Would God break the Geneva Convention Part 1 article 3a which condemns torture ? Yet Matt 18v34 has Jesus say his heavenly father would torture like the master in the parable.

James 4v17 Anyone then who knows the good he should do and fails to do it sins.
The God of the Bible would have sinned according to this own
criteria if those stories in the Bible about him were correct. The stories have him fail to act according to the Golden Rule.

Luke 12v1 Beware the yeast of the pharasees- hypocrisy
Luke 11v42 Woe to you pharisees  you give a 10th of your herbs but you neglect justice and  love.
Surely justice is to prevent injustice as you go along- by adivice
Luke 11v46 Woe to you experts in the law because you load people down but are not willing to lift a finger to help them
Luke 11v52 Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourself have not entered and you have hindered those who were entering
Science & reason -  woe to you Jesus, You're doctrine hell is incompatible with the principles of the
Golden Rule- & of do not condemn, forgive, do not judge.

SO THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THE PRIESTS WHO WROTE THE BIBLE CORRUPTED THE MESSAGE OF JESUS WHICH MIGHT HAVE MADE SOME SENSE IF IT HAD BEEN THAT HE CANCELLED HELL AND WILL EITHER TAKE PEOPLE TO HEAVEN OR LET THEM CEASE TO EXIST. DID JESUS PREACH A UNIVERSALIST MESSAGE OR WAS HE ONLY A FICTIONAL CHARACTER?

Forward motion: love golden rule, to bare good fruit : peace, patience, kindness, caring attitude, friendly, confident well we need to prune the vine. The first thing to lop off is the doctrine of hell-which actually serves & condones actions of a monstrous tyrant. Next: to realize that the Bible is a 100% organic work, 0% divine- so only pick out the few best bits, which actually Bible is correct about-love Golden Rule Matt7v12, 1 Cor13v1&13, Rom 13v10 then ask which Bible ideas don't fit

Christ's last words from the cross should have been: " Actually I've suddenly realized that I would rather not experience this severe pain. God, I could really do with some paracetamol / acetaminophen, cyclooxygenase NSAIDs and codeine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, dihydromorphine, pethidine. Why have you not given me some ? Well if the holy spirit is real then it could magic away this paiin -- 15mins later-- God i'm in agony here. You wouldn't like it if you were in my shoes. Don't just sit there watching tv help me out-- 15 mins later-- God damn, you just don't realize what it is like, and I'm just going to be a few hours before I die, imagine how it is for the poor folk who suffer illness for years. Maybe we should have created ourselves with more empathy or tried out human suffering 250,000 years ago. God get the hell down here and help me, it's unbearable. Oh look here comes a soldier to offer me medicine- Uugh vinegar- that might help your chips mate but not folk who have had theirs. If this is what hell would be like then i wouldn't want anyone to experience it. Well actually if I was to act by the Golden rule I'd better not have anyone go there. Why didn't I pray that hell be abolished, yet I went around saying that whatever was asked for in my name would be granted, I wish I'd wished it. I'm confused. Maybe I've held some wrong ideas: hypocritical ones like the pharisees Luke 12v1

God why have you forsaken the world to suffering instead of helping us like you should, it's a sin not to if you could, James 4v17

Friends, Romans, countrymen I tell you the truth, I think hell was just an idea made up to threaten & intimidate folk cause I've been on this cross for a couple of hours now and my prayers for pain relief haven't been answered. It's looking pretty much like there is no God. Maybe I should have been more skeptical about the claims of the pharisees & other religions. I was just going with the crowd. Well now that I can see I've been deluded about the supernatural realm, can I come down now ?

PARODY ON , " MRS ROBINSON " BY SIMON & GARFUNKEL

We'd like you to know a little more about the Jesus on our files
We'd like to help you learn to help yourself
Look around the Bible, all you see are synthetic: lies
Stroll around skepticink until you feel at home

So I say to you, Mrs. Robinson
Jesus would need to act by the Golden Rule (Ho, ho, ho)
God is a fiction, Mrs. Robinson
Jesus would condemn himself if he damned you
(Hey, hey, hey...hey, hey, hey)

{religious attitude}:
Hide information in a hiding place where no one ever goes
Put it in your pantry with your cupcakes
It's a little secret, just the pharisee's affair
Most of all, you've got to hide it from the kids

Coo, coo, ca-choo, Mrs Robinson
John knows more about Jesus than you will know (Woe, woe, woe)
God is a failed hypothesis, Mrs. Robinson
Heaven would have been for everybody
(Hey, hey, hey...hey, hey, hey)

Sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
Going to the skepticink debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
When you've got to choose
Every way you look at it, you can't lose

Where have you gone, Jesus " Son of God "
You were meant to return 2 millenim ago (Woo, woo, woo)
What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson
Jolting' Jesus has left and gone away
(Hey, hey, hey...hey, hey, hey)

PARODY ON, " TURN YOUR EYE'S UPON JESUS "

O brain, are you confused and troubled?
Little light in the Bible you see?
Here's a light for a look at that, " Savior "
for life more abundant and free!

Turn your spotlight on Jesus,
Should he live by the Golden Rule ?
he would not like to, be in a hell,
so  he should not take others there as well

He said do not condemn or you'll be condemned
He would condemn himself if he damned anyone
He said forgive that ye be forgiven
How could he forgive himself if he damned anyone

Turn your spotlight upon Jesus,
he should live by the Golden Rule
how could he let most of humanity suffer forever
without being worthy of that as well

His word shall never pass away though heaven does
How can you believe what is so contrary ?
He gave Peter the keys to a heaven
Peter would damn himself if he didn't give you a key

Turn your spotlight on Jesus,
He should live by the Golden Rule 
He could not let most of humanity go to  a hell,
Or surely  he'd fall in there as well

PARODY ON " ROCK A BYE BABY "

Rock a bye Christianity in the tree tops,
when 2000 years blows the cradle will rock,
when the theory of evolution is found Christianity will fall
 and down will come the supernatural realm and all.
 For a look at how other myths evolve

see Robert M. Price, " The reason driven life ",
 Joseph Campbell, " The hero with a thousand faces ",
 James Frazer, " The Golden Bough ",
 Joseph Wheless ,
 Robert Ingersoll,
 Mark Twain: Letters from the Earth

REASONS TO THINK THAT NO ONE WILL GO TO A HELL

REWRIT

MAGNA CARTA,

Surely a God would be under the same laws that he gives to humans ?

 Matt 16v16 has Simon Peter say that Jesus is " the Christ a Son of the living God." and Jesus confirm these are words from the Father in Heaven. 

 Matt 7v12 has Jesus say the Golden Rule, " So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets ". The inverse is do not do to others what you would not have them do to you. 

Well I do not want to go to an eternal torment so if i acted according to the Golden Rule of Matt 7v12,         I would not send anyone else to eternal torment / hell. Jesus taught his disciples to live according to the Golden Rule then gave Simon Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven, Matt 16v19, which would mean he could not send anyone to hades as Peter would not want to go there either. 

What other rules does the N.T. have Jesus give the disciples to live by ?

Luke 6v37 , " Do not condemn that you be not condemned, forgive and you will be forgiven ",

Matt 5v7 Blessed are the merciful

Matt 5v44 Love your enemies

Matt 22v39 The greatest commandment- love your neighbour.

Romans 10v13 Love does no harm to its neighbour therefore love is the fulfilment of the law

Ephesians 5v28 Husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies..no sane mind would hate their own body but feed and care for it.

How would Simon Peter send anyone to hell without condemning himself ? 

How would God let anyone go to a hell without falling in himself ?

It would not be ethical to let anyone go to an eternal torture / hell.  A loving God would not do that.

Matt 5v38 You have heard it said, " Eye for eye and tooth for tooth but do not even exact such revenge "

It would not be proportionate or like for like to let any human suffer for ever more for any errors they could do on Earth. If some one stole something it would not be eye for eye or tit for tat to cut off their hand or murder them, only that they should return the same value of goods that they stole. It would be over the top to
let people go into eternal suffering of hell. So a loving God could not let most of humanity go to a hell or he would be acting worse than Hitler, especially since the majority of humans have done no major harm to their neighbour- just going about their lives in a reasonable fashion, learning, working, making a family

If you think that Christ paid the price to save humanity then do you think his life wasn't enough for all humanity ?
When a sensible shepherd buys a pen of sheep at market, he doesn't ask whether they want to get on the lorry, he herds them all on whether they like it or not because he knows that they will like it at the farm once they get there. If any refuse he carries them onto the lorry.
If Jesus paid the price for humanity then he would surely take every one to a heaven

John 3v16 For God so loved the world.  Well Romans 13v10 says that love does no harm.
Matt 7v13 has Jesus say, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it "
If Jesus / God knew that most people would go to destruction and if that meant hell then God would have a duty of care to prevent that either by ensuring that all did go to heaven or by terminating humanity in the first century to limit the numbers going to hell, or by letting people become unborn again- like before they were conceived- ceasing to exist or by cancelling hell. If Jesus won the victory over hell then surely he would have cancelled it out as if it never existed. Otherwise it would merely be like changing the jailer but maintaining the same system

The Bible is a complex mix of ideas.
 The most caring,  best of the ideas contradict the cruelest, worst of the ideas.
The doctrine of hell is incompatible with the ideas about love in the Bible
Hell either never existed or Jesus cancelled it out
The Bible is both true and false, right and wrong, good and evil
A loving God would not act like orthodoxy based on some Bible verses claims or he would break every good idea in the Book

Maybe people who threaten others with hell have been acting like the older brother of the prodigal son who was in a bad mood about the  unworthy getting good things. Or maybe they are like the the servant in who treated the others cruelly in Luke 12v45 or Matt 18v28 but note the Master acts hypocritically by having the servant tortured.

Maybe Richard Dawkins is like the Good Samaritan who comes to the rescue of those beaten up and made ill by the bad psychology of the Bible ? The ministers / pharisees are too busy trying to keep themselves in a job to help administer reality. The reality is that no one is going to a cosmic eternal hell. There is no evidence that it ever existed and it would not be ethical to let anyone go there and the best  loving verses in the Bible condemn such an idea. For Jesus to be a hero he would need to have cancelled hell.

Maybe the  myth of Jesus  does save us from the errors of myth and supernaturalism. The theological theories composed over 1700 years ago have been tried and tested by the winds of time, the cradle has rocked, the theory of evolution by natural selection has made the cradle fall, down came the fear of hell / hades and the hypothesis that there was a supernatural realm / God.

The curtain is riven from top to bottom. The veil is lifted. The rock of the Bible is split in two and the pure water come out like Numbers 20v11

Maybe the holy grail of the Bible is atheism ? How to win at Biblequest. From out of the swamp comes the sword, from out of the rock comes the sword to slay the dragon- threat of hell. We can get the tools from the Bible to show that there is no supernatural realm or hell. The Bible best supports the theory that there is no cosmic supernatural realm or God